User:Spartan781/Project

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< User:Spartan781

Hey! I need your opinions on this project:

I am currently trying to get halopedia's attention on merging the M19/M41 articles together into one: User:Spartan781/M19 SSM Rocket Launcher, because there is evidence that they are the same("M19 SSM Rocket launcher" is the name, whereas "M41 SSR MAV/AW" is the official designation). Once you've read the evidence I've listed below, vote(at the bottom of this page) whether we should merge them or not.Here is the sources and evidence(sent to Relentless):

[edit] The Main Points

• The 'M19 SSM' and 'M41 MAV/AW' acronyms are designations for different parts of the same weapon.

• In Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo 2 game manuals the launcher is referred to as the 'M19 SSM' regardless of any asthetic or gameplay changes. -3 Bungie Sources

• In the Art of Halo the rocket launcher, with Halo 2 Render, is referred to as the 'M19 SSM'. -1 Bungie Source

• In the Halo Graphic Novel the ammunition crate for the launchers missile tubes has the stencil: "M19 Surface-to-Surface Missiles"- 1 Bungie Source

• These acronym designations hold the key to the weapons being the same. "M19 SSM" refers to the missiles themselves. An 'M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" is anything that will launch these missiles (i.e the Rocket Launcher). The 'M41 MAV/AW" is stencilled on the launchers casing, nowhere on the tubes themselves. Therefore it is logical to conclude that this referrs to the launcher itself.

• Therefore the missiles are 'M19 SSM' designated and the Launcher part of the weapon is the 'M41 MAV/AW'

• M19 SSM = M19 Surface-to-Surface Missile -The rocket tubes
• M41 MAV/AW = M41 Minimum-Acceptable-Value/Automatic Weapon -The launcher mechanism

• Halo3.com refers to the Halo 3 rocket launcher as the M41 rocket launcher, This agrees with the launcher section designation being used as a rocket launcher.

[edit] In Depth Analysis

Ok, here we go. The Rocket Launcher wielded in Halo Combat Evolved according to the game manual was the "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher"^[1] so this name is Bungie approved. However the in game weapon model clearly shows the marking "M41 MAV/AW" printed above the "correct usage" diagram^[2]. This is the source of the naming problem.

In Halo 2 the Rocket Launcher was altered, this we agree on, the main alteration being the new lock on ability. In the both versions of the Halo 2 manual this weapon is once again designated the "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher"^[3] and likewise the weapon model again bears the "M41 MAV/AW" marking^[4].

On Halo3.com the Rocket Launcher is reffered to only as the "M41 Rocket Launcher" and from the public Beta it appears to be the same variation as that in Combat Evolved. This version has no acronyms after it which has caused many to view it as a new Rocket Launcher type. All of these sources are directly from Bungie.

So the "M41 MAV/AW" section of the name could be the model number of the Rocket Launcher, an overall designation for that class of weapon. Since both homing and non-homing versions of the rocket launcher, from Halo 2 and Halo: Combat Evolved respectively, are called the "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" perhaps it should all be one section.

But what of the acronyms, what do they mean? Do they help in this debate? Using the website [1] and their military acronym list. The SSM part of "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" probably refers to it's nature as a Surface-to-Surface-Missile launcher. As for "M41 MAV/AW" could represent Minimum Acceptable Value/Automatic Weapon which would coincide with the launchers nature as a slow firing, automatic weapon (the automated rotation of the missile tubes into firing position).

Since the M41 section is printed on the launcher for the rocket tubes, is it not possible that this is the designation for the launcher? But once the tubes and launcher are combined into an actual offensive weapon it is known as the "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher". Just food for thought.

I am of the conclusion that the M41 and the M19 are infact two designations for the same weapon. As such only one page should exist, or atleast a disambiguation page named "M41 MAV/AW" with a subheading dealing with the "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" and the homing/non homing variations.

We should take the game manuals to be gospel in this case. Both the Halo and Halo 2 Rocket Launchers are listed as the "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" in these manuals. Other than in a third-party guidebook (and therefore non-direct Bungie source) this has been the case throughout. At least we should stop referring to the M41 as the Halo 2 Rocket launcher. Since we do not have a copy of Halo 3, by all means leave the Halo 3 Rocket Launcher name as undecided, perhaps it should be placed in its own category as a subheading in the "M19 SSM" Section.

I apologise for the length of this section and if any of it is covered in Spartan781's sections but I felt the argument for needed to be clearer and with more Bungie sources :-)

More evidence from Bungie. The Art of Halo^[5] from page 95 onwards goes through all the weaponry of the two games. Page 101 concerns the Rocket launcher. It shows a 3D render of the Halo 2 version of the rocket launcher and lists it as the 'M19 SSM'. This book refers to every weapon from Halo: CE (Xbox and PC versions) and Halo 2. It does NOT list two rocket launcher types, just the one. The 'M19'.

So we have both versions of the Halo 2 game manual stating it as the 'M19'. They can't both be wrong. - 2 Bungie sources. We also have the Art of Halo confirming the weapon as the 'M19' - now 3 Bungie sources all for the merge.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here, but oh well.

We have 2 designations for the rocket launchers of Halo. The "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" of Halo 1 and Halo 2. The "M41 MAV/AW" suspectedly of Halo 3.

The acronym designations are a clue to the identity. On page 103 of the Halo Graphic Novel^[6] (A product produced by Marvel in tight unison with Bungie) the Ammunition casing for the rocket launcher can clearly be seen. It clearly states that the contents within (the disposable rocket tubes) are "M19 Surface to Suface missles". The first designation is here, as a designation of the missiles within. Therefore any launcher of these missiles is the a "M19 SSM Rocket launcher". This coincides with the names given by Bungie so far.

The M41 MAV/AW stencil is written on the launcher part of the system not anywhere on the missile tubes. Therefore is it not logical to draw the conclusion that this is the designation of the Launcher! Therefore both names are correct and referring to the same object. Please tell me if this is enough evidence for a merge. So far we have 3 Bungie game manuals, the Halo graphic novel and the the Art of Halo all pointing to the same conclusion.

[edit] Sources

1. ↑ Halo: Combat Evolved Game Manual Pg 19
2. ↑ Halo: Combat Evolved in game model
3. ↑ Halo 2: Game Manual Pg 11 of UNSC version and Pg 14 of Covenant version
4. ↑ Halo 2 In game model and clearly visible on image on Pg 11 of UNSC version of manual and Pg 14 of Covenant version
5. ↑ page 101 of Art of Halo
6. ↑ PAGE 103 OF HGN

Total Bungie sources for= 5

Reasons against= unfounded, not backed with evidence, based on changes that can easily be attributed to asthetics and alteration of game mechanics.

[edit] Prospective New Articles- The Conclusion of this Debate

Article 1- "M19 SSM Rocket Launcher" - MKI (Halo:CE) -MKII (Halo 2)

(So, similar to the M90 Shotgun article)

Article 2- "M41 MAV/AW" (Halo 3)

(Since we've had no evidence to the contrary, the Halo 3 rocket launcher should remain under this heading, or maybe just "M41")

This, we feel, is a compromise situation that holds true to the information and evidence that we have gathered and signifies to readers that there are notable differences to the Halo:CE and Halo 2 rocket launcher variants. How do you guys feel towards this?

[edit] Internet and Bungie Forum Articles

1. www.bungie.net - see post by Rtas Vadumee
2. www.bungie.net - see post by BobBQ

[edit] Comments

• Again, this is just more people's speculation, it's on a forum page. Just because it's on Bungie.net, doesn't mean it's Canon. It was posted by other people in the forums and they were giving their opinions. Still not positive proof.

-- Donut THX 1138 ^[Comm] 19:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• M19 REALLY IS M41

Look at what I've found here (taken from [2])(note that the webpage I got the info from takes A LOT of time to load):

The M19 SSM Rocket Launcher is a man-portable and shoulder-fired rocket launcher. It has two major components, the launcher and the magazine. The magazine (the expendabe part of the system) contains two 102mm shaped-charge, high-explosive rockets. It is designed for fast, easy detachment from the launcher. The launcher contains the sighting and fire control systems. Equipped with a 2x zoom that, when activated, allows the wielder to activate a target lock-on mechanism which tracks moving objects. The Rocket Launcher is, of course, fun to play with, but be careful when running and jumping while trying to hit someone. Blowing yourself away with a rocket that hit too close would be a very, very stupid thing to do.

• Official Designation: M41 SSR MAV/AW
• Projectiles: 102MM Shaped-Charge, High-Explosive Tracking Rockets
• Dual-Wield: No
• Damage: Very High
• Range: Long
• Accuracy: High (Charged: Homing)
• Rate of Fire: Low
• Autofire Capability: Manual
• Magazine Capacity: 2 Rockets
• Ammunition ( Additional): 6 (3 Magazines)
• Reload Speed: Slow
• Melee Attack: Slow
• Scope: 2X

As you can see, the (M19 SSM Rocket Launcher) is the name of the Launcher, and the (M41 SSR MAV/AW Rocket Launcher) is the official designation. So, can we merge the M19 and M41 articles together? They are the same weapon, seriously. Reply me on that.--Spartan781 ^Comm_CSV 06:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• M19 = M41

But wait! the Halo 2 manual also says M19 SSM(while the Piggyback guidebook lists the official designation). AND the Halo CE in-game launcher also says M41. All points to it that that is true. Your argument does not prove your theory. Even halo 3 launcher has changes from the halo 2 one. If the Halo CE launcher is M19, then why did Bungie put M41 on the launcher, given it's the first halo game? --Spartan781 ^Comm_CSV 00:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• PLEASE! M19 really =M41

RR, can we merge the M19/M41 pages already? I researched on it and found numerous websites that lists Halo 2 launcher as "M19 SSM". That proves that M19=M41, beyond any reasonable doubt. Websites:

1. consolecheatcodes.com
2. ign.com
3. urbandictionary(er, I don't know if this one proves it)
4. wikipedia(even wikipedia lists it as the same! Look at the M41 section and it mentions M19)
5. gamedaily.com(look at the halo 2 weapons section)
6. groups.msn
7. gamefaqs
8. nlgaming.com

Is that enough proof? Please give me the green light to redirect the M19 and M41 pages to the page I made. Please, halopedia gives viewers the right info only. Please don't disappoint me or them. PLEASE! --Spartan781 ^Comm_CSV 08:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• M19/M41

Wait, take a look at this: Bungie.net

That proves some inconsistency with naming, even with the SRS99C. But the person's words(BobBQ) seem to indicate that M19 IS M41. Finally! One piece of real SOLID evidence! --Spartan781 ^Comm_CSV 10:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I also saw that some forums mention the Halo 3 Rocket Launcher as M41 while others the M19. Same goes for the Halo 2 version. This inconsistency of naming proves that both are the same. Ready to merge? --Spartan781 ^Comm_CSV 10:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Votes

Once you've voted, give your reasons.

[edit] For Merge

(7)

1. He has proof and if hes right we should treat it as the same weapon instead of 2 same weapons. Spartan-010:Stryker ^{My Comm} _{My Battles} 13:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
2. I think that no one really knows whether they are two or one. since they are the same weapon, why not merge? That's the second reason.--Spartan781 ^Comm_CSV 09:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
   1. First you say no one knows if they're the same... then you say "since they are the same, why not merge?" that should be "IF they are the same, why not merge," so someone can come along and say "because we don't know if they're the same." Until we find out that they are the same, we treat them as seperate. --NOTASTAFF GPT_(talk)^(eating) 12:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
3. Now I've added my weight to the evidence and looked a little deeper I am in agreement with Spartan 781. There should be some change, maybe not a complete overhaul but some sort of compromise is in order. A Monument to All Your Sins 13:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
4. MERGE Gravemind has talked to me about having the H:CE RL as the Mk. I and the H2 RL as the Mk.II. With the H3 RL being the M41. I agree with this, and I am now for merging. Captain Tony (CO of UOH Yankee Company) 7/19/2007
5. There is proof.Simple.-Spartan-G007 ^{XBL gamertag:SpartanG007}
6. ÇЋЇŒʢ ʕЛΆΝќAegis Company ^{βĻά βĻά βĻά}_{ɰЊάł Ḷ ḍõИШ} 14:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
   1. Comment: Dear Spartan781, the main point here is probably that some of us are just willing to take the evidence at face value. It appears I'm sort of confused - the H:CE is the M19, but according to the H2 strategy guide, the H2 one is the M41, and according to halo3.com, the H3 one is the M41. Even though there may be some other information to the contrary, I believe that we will probably just accept the more "official" information, ignoring conjecture and stuff. However, don't worry! At one time, my stuff on starships was looked down upon until a helpful Halopedian referenced it all. Bungie might reveal further information that might show that our good one whoring Rocket Launcher has been the same all along! :-) Cheers, RelentlessRecusant 'o the Halopedia Team ^TALK • _SPEAK 11:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
7. I agree with Spartan781. There is plenty of evidence to support what he says. TheDevilMayCry 05:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Against Merge

(9)

1. Against Merge - Spartan781 surely has compelling evidence, but, well, quite flatly, the H:CE and H2 launchers are the M19, and the H3 launcher is the M41, according to Bungie pages and strategy guides. :-) Cheers, RelentlessRecusant 'o the Halopedia Team ^TALK • _SPEAK 14:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Against per above. --Dragonclaws^(talk) 07:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
3. Against Merge - Spartan781 has surely spent a great deal of time and effort, and a lot of thought has been put into this page, but my decision ultimately comes down to this: not one of the references you have provided is from Bungie. -- Manticore ^{Talk | CSV} 07:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
4. Against Merge You put a ton of work into it, but no Bungie sources.Spartytime^Talk 13:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
5. Against Merge Get some evidence from Bungie, until then, that's all only other people's fanon. :-- Donut THX 1138 ^[Comm] 16:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
6. Against Merge Sorry. As much as I love to prove the traitorous, heresy spewing, RR wrong, I am afraid that the differences i.e. amount of ammunition allowed to be held at one time, speed differences, et cetera... Are just too convincing. SPARTAN-387 ^Comm 14:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
7. Against Merge Indeed.--UNSCOH COL. "Running Riot" Ryan BAM 22:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC) 01:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
8. Against Merge M19. M41. Not the same thing. Phil.e. ^{[Talk to me]} 18:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
9. Against Merge As per everyone above.Corporal-G023 ^{Comm Channel} _{Mission History}B Company 00:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What are your reasons?

How can these launchers be different weapons? In the manuals they are called the M19 SSM Rocket Launcher but on the launcher part of the weapon they are called the M41 SSR MAV/AW- this stencil is on EVERY ROCKET LAUNCHER MODEL IN ALL THREE GAMES EVEN THE BETA!!!!!. You have all demanded Bungie sources and evidence to provide reason behind our suggestion. But you denounce it with no reasons of your own. Both voters 7 and 8 give no reasons at all for their decision! How is this fair?

Those against say M19 and M41 are two seperate weapons. We ask you how can this be? The officially designated M19's thus far both have the M41 stencil on their sides. Either Bungie are confused about what to name it or they are both designations for the SAME weapon!!!

Please can someone send a message to A Monument to All Your Sins detailing why the majority concensus is against this merge.